I think you?ll find that ?universal education? was not in effect at the country?s founding.? It was invented much later?by Dewey, a Progressive.
Thus we find that the public-school delivery vehicle has at least one significant major flaw:? it is philosophically unable to explain the reality of the nature of man (and nature as a whole) b/c it is philosophically atheist.
?School choice? should not be about ?delivery systems.?? Rather, it should be about a proper understanding of man.
Posted by dad29 on?January 22, 2013?at?0755 hrsDad29, you hit on some very good points. It all needs to be re-thought and re-done. I have the will, and you seem to too,? but I?m afraid that most others don?t.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?0758 hrs
?I think you?ll find that ?universal education? was not in effect at the country?s founding.? It was invented much later?by Dewey, a Progressive.?
*cough cough* Horace Mann *cough cough*
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?0911 hrs
Well done Owen.
Let?s hope Walker gets done what many thought Tommy would get done, full school choice voucher program statewide.
Wisconsin can be a beacon for education reform for the nation.
This would be Walker?s greatest government reform legacy.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1003 hrs
Do choice schools perform better than public schools?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1111 hrs
Scott,
MPS has a HS graduation rate of less than 50%...what do you think?
In Kewaskum, state testing, the 2 private schools outperform the public schools.
Kewaskum is considered to be a fairly good public school district.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1116 hrs
Surely we must have more generalizable data than that.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1121 hrs
Scott,
50%+ of kids do not graduate in Milwaukee and you need more data?
Maybe watching this 60 minutes report might move you:? (Katie Couric is no friend to vouchers, children, or conservatives)
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6895336n
Here is eye opening documentary:
http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/action/
When parents are crying their kids are sentenced to NVC public schools because they missed opportunity for limited ?voucher? funding?
anyone not moved by that lacks any heart at all.
Scott, if public schools are so good, why do parent cry when they cannot get funding to escape?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1203 hrs
You already have it in Milwaukee. I am wondering how it helps the rural areas where there are not any choices. Will all of these schools be able to handle special education students or will they be able to only take those that are up to their standards. I think the big push back is that this sets up the public schools to fail because they have to take whatever student shows up and they cannot turn them away. That is how you guarantee an education to all.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1234 hrs
Will all of these schools be able to handle special education students or will they be able to only take those that are up to their standards.
Not all private schools will be equipped to handle these students.? With choice, parents have to evaluate whether the school, whether public or private, can meet any needs of the student whether ?special?, or not.
In some cases, that may leave the public school as only choice for ?special? need kids.? As reform progresses that may evolve and change in the marketplace.
It would be dumb to ?obligate? any school to take a student that does not have the ability, or ?special? skill, to teach that student.? (I know that is counterintuitive to liberalism since obligation, force, and slavery is morally acceptable.)
The term that drives me crazy is ?dumping ground?.? If school leaders think their public school is a ?dumping ground?, that is an indictment of public school leadership.? That school deserves to fail no matter what the challenges.
However, in a competitive marketplace, no public school will be able to take that attitude.
Choice is good for all?even those that remain in the public school.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1250 hrs
Do choice schools perform better than public schools?
Posted by scott on January 22, 2013 at 1111 hrs
Does it matter? Even if they perform worse, is it not in the interests of freedom of choice to allow parents to choose what they believe best for their children?
FWIW, my kids don?t go to public school. I?m willing and able to make the financial sacrifice to send them elsewhere, but I?d also like other folks to have that option, too. Our local schools are in the top 3% in the state, but that doesn?t mean they?re good enough or offer the best environment for our children to learn in. Not all children respond well to factory settings with massive classrooms and uniform standards of instruction.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1253 hrs
Does it matter? Even if they perform worse
How can it not matter? Of course it matters.? Is it important that everyone have the freedom to fly in a poorly maintained airplane?? Is it important that everyone has the freedom to live in homes that aren?t up to code?? Yes, it matters.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1356 hrs
How can it not matter? Of course it matters.? Is it important that everyone have the freedom to fly in a poorly maintained airplane?? Is it important that everyone has the freedom to live in homes that aren?t up to code?? Yes, it matters
If the ill-maintained government airline and ill maintained government housing was the only choice, then an ill maintained private airline and a private house with some code violations sounds pretty good by comparison to the socialist monopoly.
If a parent finds a private school with some minor challenges is an improvement over the government monopoly school, that is their choice.
The choice allows parents to take direct ownership of their kids education.
Lesson: even a poor quality private market choice is better than being forced to a one size fits all government monopoly.? The problem for you Scott is:? the marketplace rarely tolerates bad performance for long.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1414 hrs
Everything you just wrote, Kevin, presumes that choice schools are better schools.? You?re begging the question, in other words.? We haven?t yet established that they are in fact doing better.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1427 hrs
Scott,
If private school IS NOT doing better, parents will send their kids back to the better public school.
What is the problem?? Choice all around.? Choice to choose the better public school even.
That choice would not happen presently in Kewaskum.? The 2 private schools far outperform the public school by state standardized testing.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1433 hrs
Yeah.? I don?t know, guys.? I think it?s a pretty basic question.? If you can?t answer it, I don?t know what to tell you.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1502 hrs
Scott,
I?ve answered it for my community and Milwaukee.
Do you want me to go through every community one at a time?
It also depends on what you value as well.? In my book, Christ centered schools outperform all public schools just on that issue alone, no question.
I value a Christ centered education above all else.? that makes public school far inferior, just on that issue alone.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1509 hrs
Scott, studies confirm students in choice programs have demonstrably better graduation rates, and they do it for less cost. Other studies have shown that the satisfaction rate for parents is much higher than that of parents whose kids attend public schools.
By the way, it?s a pernicious myth that the private schools will only skim the best students from the public schools. It?s parents of lower achieving students that are seeking the alternatives.
There was an interesting article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel from one study?s authors that?s worth reading on the subject. http://m.jsonline.com/more/editorials/perspectives/187369091.htm
Of course, I?ve written quite a bit on the subject, including the importance of public school choice options.
Posted by James Wigderson on?January 22, 2013?at?1523 hrsKevin,
Whether private schools do better or not, taxpayer dollars should never be used for Christ-centered education. One option, however, that I think would be acceptable is for the taxpayer dollars to pay for whatever portion of the curriculum is secular, and then it?s up to the parent, or the school, to cover the cost of the Christ-centered aspects.
BTW, this would/should apply to any religious education regardless of the religion, of course.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1618 hrs
I appreciate the response and still have some concerns on how a student gets accepted into these voucher schools. I did not call the public schools a dumping ground and am only concerned that the more expensive special education students will be left behind because the programs will not be available at the voucher schools. I read the link posted by Widgerson and I feel the article somewhat sidestepped this important issue.
I also want to point out that our small rural school has a 100% graduation rate. How they can pull off 100% is probably debatable. Under the comparison of the graduation rate for MPS then our little school out performs all the voucher schools.I am not saying they get a better education because funding rural schools does not allow for the massive programming of the large cities. We don?t stray to far from the basics. I am sure that there is a little room to work around the state mandates that the public schools need to follow to make these numbers look better to attract more and better students. The act of cherry picking does not have to be blatant, some schools will work to attract those that they want while not being as attractive to those they don?t want to serve.
Our public schools are mandated to not turn anyone away whether they need a one to one special education instructor or are a genius that wants to take college level courses while in high school which is to be paid by the school district. Making this issue a political one is the worst way to look at it, we all need to be sure that it is what is best for the children.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1623 hrs
One option, however, that I think would be acceptable is for the taxpayer dollars to pay for whatever portion of the curriculum is secular, and then it?s up to the parent, or the school, to cover the cost of the Christ-centered aspect
VA,
To force a Christian separate Christ out of one?s life, in any degree, is contrary to Christian faith.
Thus, why public schools present a fundamental education problem for many Christians.
?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1633 hrs
That?s not really a response to my option/the suggestion that I?ve heard presented. If school choice becomes more prevalent, and it?s funded with public dollars, those dollars absolutely should NOT go to fund the teaching of Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc? religious values or lessons. I wasn?t suggesting that Christians be forced into a religious education without religion. I was suggesting that those who make the choice to go to a religious school not receive public money to pay for the exclusively religious portion of that education.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1654 hrs
VA,
True Christian faith is not something that can be cold heartedly detached from the school curriculum.
You are good at articulating the mainline religions you do not want funded.
What about the liberal religions in public school?
What about the Kwanzaa worship at Falk Elementary school?
Global warming worship and its faithful refrain ?the earth is warming??
Where is your outrage at these religions permeating the public school curriculum?
You think you know what ?religion? is or how to define it?? Read this Ann Althouse piece.
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2013/01/yoga-in-public-schools-establishment.html
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-elvis-problem-defining-religion.html
and my favorite discussing whether what Falk elementary did was religion:
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2013/01/shouldnt-freedom-from-religion.html
Are you just as outraged by Yoga?s current establishment clause problem IN public schools?
Why is liberal Yoga religion allowed in public schools and funded?
?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1712 hrs
First, thanks Wiggy, for posting something pretty interesting.? I am given to wonder, however, if these research findings are as plain and incontrovertible as the author seems to think.? Where?s Jay Bullock when you want his opinion on something?
taxpayer dollars should never be used for Christ-centered education.
I definitely feel this way also.? We have an obligation to educate everyone through the 12th grade, if possible.? I don?t think it?s right at all for that obligation to lead us to subsidize someone?s religious activities.? Christians like Kevin are adamant that they don?t see a problem with this.? But I think they?re just playing dumb.? If they lived in a Muslim majority country, they?d be out on the street corner loudly wondering why everyone doesn?t immediately see the wisdom of keeping religious activities out of the public obligation to educate the young.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1715 hrs
Scott,
I don?t want funding of liberal public school religions either.? (Read Althouse blog)
When will that be enforced??
I?m especially offended, and cringe, looking at the Falk Elementary Kwanzaa worship video.
Or is it Christians you only discriminate against?
Tolerance by granting choice is not a good option?
Or should only liberal religions be funded?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1726 hrs
Alright Kevin, you win. You?ve gone in to your intentionally dumb, obfuscating, blathering talking points mode, so there?s no reason to continue this conversation.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1729 hrs
VA,
I have ?talking points??
Thats outstanding.
So this means you will not call for defunding of other pubic school religions with me?
I?m a little disappointed you think the establishment clause is only for Christian suppression.? I think there a whole lot more, liberal, religious suppression we can conduct in public schools!
If we offer school choice, no need for liberal religious leaders to worry about the coming suppression under the guise of the establishment clause.? (Everyone can opt out of the liberal religions.)
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1736 hrs
The two big issues I see with choice are that choice schools do not have to adhere to any statewide standards.? Teachers do not need to be licensed or credentialed.? Early on in the thread, a question was asked about choice schools in Milwaukee and their performances.? The last stats I remember showed there was no measurable difference between choice and MPS.
Another issue I see is special education and the students choice schools can take or leave.? Choice schools do not need to take any special education students.? They do not have to provide IEP?s.? They can expell a child without the same protections for the family because a child expelled from private school can still go to public school.? Choice schools can choose their students, public schools cannot.? Choice schools will be able to weed out lower performing students driving up their test scores.
Ultimatley this can and will lead to my public school getting less of my tax money to educate students with more needs.
If you want school choice?level the playing field.? Make choice schools follow the Federal discrimination guideliness?they cannot discriminate on the basis of race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, etc.? If a choice school is alllowed to discriminate, why should they get my tax money?? Make them accredited by the state with the same criteria as a public school for curriculum.? Require all teachers to be licensed.? What would be wrong with that?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1801 hrs
The last several posts from Kevin are the kind that sometimes make me think that he is a fake poster.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?1944 hrs
...they cannot discriminate on the basis of race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, etc?
Public schools cvannot discriminate based on religion????
Really?
Have you read the Family Research Council report?
http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF12H29.pdf
Let me know when public schools stop discriminating against Christians, and I may stop laughing at you comment.
And another thing, private schools would need to check with elementary and grade school kids on their sexual orientation??-lol.
?
?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2003 hrs
Have you read the Family Research Council report?
I generally don?t get my information from hate groups.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2038 hrs
Scott, I find it interesting that you oppose any use of tax dollars for Christ-centered education. Should we bar any student receiving a federally-backed student loan or grant from attending Marquette University? Should we bar any research dollars, or any grants for the dental school, from going to Marquette?
Posted by James Wigderson on?January 22, 2013?at?2039 hrsScott,
Family Research Council is a hate group?
Are you against families?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2041 hrs
Should we bar any student receiving a federally-backed student loan or grant from attending Marquette University?
Of course not.? College and university study is different.? It isn?t compulsory, for starters.?
Family Research Council is a hate group?
It is according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.? Undoubtedly this is because of their position on homosexuality.? Not only do they falsely assert that homosexuality is closely linked to pedophilia, apparently they?d like to criminalize homosexual acts.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2049 hrs
Scott,
Conservatives wear it as a badge of honor to be labeled a ?hate group? by Southern Poverty Law Center.
SPLC labels anyone opposed to its radical Marxist agenda as ?hate?.
This means you must not read any anti-Marxist information as all.
That explains a lot.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2056 hrs
?The difference is that with school choice, parents can move their kids to a better school even if they don?t have the means to do so themselves.?
Parents can do this now with open enrollment.
When, and only when, choice schools (including and especially parochial schools) have to provide the exact same services as public schools (special education services, for one example) AND abide by the same laws as public schools can there be a true and valid comparison of the effectiveness of public vs. choice/parochial.? Until then you are comparing apples to oranges.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2058 hrs
Not only do they falsely assert that homosexuality is closely linked to pedophilia, apparently they?d like to criminalize homosexual acts.
Hate ^
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2103 hrs
Scott,
Of course not.? College and university study is different.? It isn?t compulsory, for starters.
Let me get this straight.?
Voluntary study, Christian education funding from government is OK?
My grade school kids are under ?voluntary study? of their Christian education?there we are, all good!
?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2104 hrs
It is according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.
Getting your information from the SPLW is highly suspect. This is the same outfit that inspired the homosexual activist last August to shoot up the FRC, wounding a security guard. It also spends 89% of its money on fundraising and administrative costs, making it one of the most poorly run and lowest rated charities in the country. In reality, it?s little more than a self serving organization trumpeting its own version of ?hate? discovery to raise money for itself.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2109 hrs
I don?t care if they eat Christian babies for breakfast.? It doesn?t change the fact that Family Research Council is a hate group.?
But whatever.? Even hate groups have supporters.? I guess they?re called haters.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2118 hrs
Scott,
I consider the leftist, Freedom from Religion Foundation a hate group as well.
FRC does an excellent job in their report exposing this radical, anti-American, leftist hate group.
135 pages of leftist hate detailed in FRC report is very, very compelling.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2118 hrs
How can it not matter? Of course it matters.? Is it important that everyone have the freedom to fly in a poorly maintained airplane?? Is it important that everyone has the freedom to live in homes that aren?t up to code?? Yes, it matters.
How do YOU define success? Do you define it as creating someone who mindlessly parrots talking points of which you approve? Or do you define it as helping someone develop analytic skills that would be stifled in a normal classroom?
One of the reasons that home-schooled kids do so much better in general is that their own strengths are played to. They may not be as strong at the some of the facets that public schools view as important, such as an intimate knowledge of how to apply a condom to a banana, or the various Kwanza decorations, but in general they have a stronger knowledge of history, spelling, and geography than kids who are forced into deal with the public system. The public school system has been burdened by far too many diversions to properly perform its core tasks of educating students in basic knowledge and critical thinking. (Don?t get me started on how much students have declined in the last 30 years. I?ve seen it first hand and it is appalling.)
I was aghast when I saw my teenager?s American History text for 10th grade. There were 8 pages on the Revolutionary War containing a grand total of 9 paragraphs discussing the events leading up the Declaration of Independence through the writing of the Constitution. 9 paragraphs, but lots of pretty drawings! When I complained to the teacher, she beamed back a huge smile and said that the video supplement would fill in the gaps and that this was a big improvement over all that dry reading they had to do before. I was furious that a high school so highly ranked in the state could get away with such a text and claim to be providing a ?good education.?? Yes, if there had been choice at that point I would have pulled her out of that school, but we made do with some extra reading and an AP course later.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2124 hrs
I don?t care if they eat Christian babies for breakfast.? It doesn?t change the fact that Family Research Council is a hate group.?
So you hate based on the information from haters? The SPLC ?hates? anyone who ?hates? gays, so that makes your hate ok?
Interesting belief system you have there. Tried that thing called tolerance that liberals are supposed to be promoting? I know, you can tolerate anything except heterodoxy.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2129 hrs
Scott,
Is this what political debate is boiled down to:? Whoever can label the other ?haters?, thereby undermining any real discussion of the issues?
I?m hopeful we can set a better example then.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2130 hrs
nerdbert, you seem to have put some thought into the subject of education.? Do you have a background in it?
Kevin, I?d like to help elevate the discussion.? But if you think telling people that gays are child molesters and that their relationships should be prosecuted as crimes, well.. I?m not sure where to go from there.? Suggestions?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2237 hrs
As a card carrying member of both the SPLC and FFRF, I can state with clarity that the above comments are incorrect and in some cases, made up out of thin air.
Kevin, your beloved Christian schools test better because they thin the herd.
Period
I gave MILWAUKEE charters schools a chance when Howard Fuller said we needed to try them . I?ve seen nothing to say they are better and many articles about scams .
You and Owen and all the other choice supporters need to Sack up like our parents
did, leave the seat vacant you pay for , and exercise your ?choice? to send your kids to the school of your choice
That generation didn?t whine. This one does. It?s called conservatism .
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2343 hrs
I?m hopeful we can set a better example then.
THIS is the biggest, and most obvious, lie you?ve ever told.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 22, 2013?at?2345 hrs
THIS is the biggest, and most obvious, lie you?ve ever told.
I feel ya. But I?m always willing to give folks another chance.? I guess it?s just my hope that they?ll give me one, too!? If Kevin says he?d like to elevate the discussion, I?m a believer.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?0032 hrs
nerdbert, you seem to have put some thought into the subject of education.? Do you have a background in it?
You mean besides having a professor at a major midwestern university for a father, a mother who was the leader of a teachers union, a Ph.D., two masters, two BSs, and teaching for several decades as an adjunct simply because I like doing it? No, nothing much other than that.
Teaching doesn?t pay the bills like commercial work does, but it?s very rewarding and I absolutely love doing it. Adjunct pay is laughable and make McDonald?s pay look good the first time you teach a course, but even a tenured professor doesn?t make much. If it paid close to what I make now I?d teach, but I started my career at a salary higher than the average tenured engineering professor and I?ve left that pay level in the dust long ago.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?0308 hrs
But if you think telling people that gays are child molesters and that their relationships should be prosecuted as crimes, well.. I?m not sure where to go from there.? Suggestions?
I did not say this.
Do you agree with everything said by SPLC or Freedom from Religion Foundation?
If so, let?s have a debate about that.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?0722 hrs
Mark
Kevin, your beloved Christian schools test better because they thin the herd.
Period
Kids do better because they have Christ as their number 1 priority.? At home. At school. At Play.? My nephew attends public school and my parents visit both for grandparents day.
They say its a night and day difference in kids attitude and the level of academics.
Taking Christ out of the equation (public school) puts kids behind, and at a disadvantage, spiritually.? Rejecting Christ has severe consequences on numerous levels.
Given the fact that public schools can only encourage the spirit with empty liberal religions, like Kwanzaa, I can see why the spirits of many of the kids at public school are starving.
You can?t starve the ?herd? spiritually, then complain those that break from the herd, that feed the spirit, properly, and then come back and complain the herd is starving.
Chrisitian parents want their kids to be fed beyond the mind.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?0730 hrs
VA, Scott,
THIS is the biggest, and most obvious, lie you?ve ever told
I feel ya. But I?m always willing to give folks another chance.? I guess it?s just my hope that they?ll give me one, too!? If Kevin says he?d like to elevate the discussion, I?m a believer.
You mean my modest emulation of liberal political tactics, like those conducted by the liberal Freedom from Religion Foundation and SPLC is a bad thing?
I thought liberalism was about tolerance?
So copying liberal political tactics is something I should re-evaluate?
I appreciate the feedback
God Bless.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?0733 hrs
Great discussion on who hates who better or worse. Why do we have to look to the experts that back up only our own claims? Mark Maley is the only one that looked at this from a completely practical and honest view. Whether they show it as policy or not, the choice schools will find a way to weed out the less than desirables or those unable to perform. I have not seen an argument to refute that.
When the conversation goes to name calling and finger pointing it loses it?s constructive tone. I have noticed that there are very few posts that Kevin does not call out somebody for something and I find that disconcerting. I am not saying that Kevin does not raise some good points but if you were having a discussion with someone that repeats endlessly the same thing, you would walk away.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?0800 hrs
I have noticed that there are very few posts that Kevin does not call out somebody for something and I find that disconcerting.
Could you provide a couple examples?
Whether they show it as policy or not, the choice schools will find a way to weed out the less than desirables or those unable to perform. I have not seen an argument to refute that.
And what does that say about public school leadership if they view the kids they have as ?undesirable?, a ?dumping ground?, etc?
Will kids thrive or fail in that type of enviroment?
Those kids are in public school now.
Is this all about bringing down kids and parents that want better?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?0807 hrs
What is the purpose of the public school?? Why would success be defined by graduation rates?
I suggest that public school failures are a consequence of trying to prepare everyone for college, something discussed at length on this forum several years ago.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?0948 hrs
That?s not really a response to my option/the suggestion that I?ve heard presented. If school choice becomes more prevalent, and it?s funded with public dollars, those dollars absolutely should NOT go to fund the teaching of Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc? religious values or lessons. I wasn?t suggesting that Christians be forced into a religious education without religion. I was suggesting that those who make the choice to go to a religious school not receive public money to pay for the exclusively religious portion of that education.
Why not?? Strip away ?Because that is the liberal way? for a moment and answer the question as Move forward accuses Mark Maley of doing from a practical and honest view.? I can fully understand why you don?t want your kids in a religious school you don?t believe in.? However, why are you against a different parent choosing to send their child to a Christian school?? Why don?t they have that right?? Why do they have to help pay for your kid and you absolutely should not have to help pay for their kid?? What is the honest and practical liberal answer?
If you want school choice?level the playing field.? Make choice schools follow the Federal discrimination guideliness?they cannot discriminate on the basis of race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, etc.? If a choice school is alllowed to discriminate, why should they get my tax money?? Make them accredited by the state with the same criteria as a public school for curriculum.? Require all teachers to be licensed.? What would be wrong with that?
First part, done.? All choice schools are required to follow federal discrimination guidelines.? What if a large contingent of the population believe that a major part of the problem is all of the useless classes and indoctrination that the education training system puts in the way of teaching?? And before you ask, Scott, I have a teaching degree and first hand experience.? I would much rather have an evaluation of the teacher?s success be a measure of whether to retain them or give them a raise, over a money to the state license renewal, and new class requirement.
Mark?s honest and practical view included this:
Kevin, your beloved Christian schools test better because they thin the herd. Period
Where is the proof of this?? Can you point me to some instances where a private school denied a child because of learning problems?? Most anecdotal evidence of denials are because of reasons unrelated to learning problems.? The few appropriate anecdotals I read were from the state denying the entry because the Government decided the school did not have the facilities.? For instance, it was not enough that a teacher was willing to take a wheelchair up and down steps.? Ramps or elevators were required everywhere steps were by Gov?t regs and the small school could not afford to make the changes.? The Christian schools I have associated with would never have turned away a child because of their disabilities.?
As I am quite positive none of you can provide any statistical proof of it(period), I will accept even anecdotal proof of a few christian schools turning away low achievers or even special needs children(not the Gov?t).? I suspect you believe this line of BS because it is a liberal urban legend.? Enough educators have said it, so it is true, because of one instance of a for profit charter school doing something fishy sometime in the past.? There is some(small) evidence of charter schools doing some cherry picking, but you all don?t hate charters like you do religious schools, so please keep the evidence to religious schools.
Mark also said this:
You and Owen and all the other choice supporters need to Sack up like our parents
did, leave the seat vacant you pay for , and exercise your ?choice? to send your kids to the school of your choiceThat generation didn?t whine. This one does. It?s called conservatism .
Hardly honest or practical.? Our parents went to schools that taught the basics, how to think, etc.? Today kids get breakfast, fuzzy math, Kwanzaa month, black history month, women in history month, flavor of the day week, etc.? 90% of inventions in the 19th and 20th centuries were by white males, but thanks to black history month, everybody knows who invented peanut butter.?
So moveforward, before I provide evidence to refute whether private schools cherry pick, isn?t it your responsibility to first prove that they do?? The closest I could find was Conn schools in Hartford, where charter(not religious) schools have half the number of spanish speakers than public schools.? As far as I could tell, the 2 most likely reasons for this were: 1) Spanish speaking parents don?t even know about the choice and 2) Culturally, spanish speakers try to stick together.? If they had their choice, the majority of spanish speakers would opt to send their kid to a wholly hispanic school.? In Florida where vouchers are big, studies have shown that ?...cherry picking is irrelevant?.? What have you got?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?1029 hrs
The idea that Christianity is somehow necessary for academic success is asinine. Most of Europe does better academically despite being mostly secular. Much of Asia does better academically despite being either secular, or non-Christian. It?s a stupid argument easily refuted just by looking at the world at large.
If you would like a good explanation as to ?why you should have to pay for someone else?s kid?s education,? the simplest answer is that widespread education produces secondary benefits to society at large, and actions which produce positive externalities tend to be underprovided.? Subsidies are sometimes justified in such cases.?
You can always pay for private school if you don?t like the public system.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?1041 hrs
Paul,
You can always pay for private school if you don?t like the public system.
But can private school parents opt not to pay for the public system?
If we don?t like the public system, why should we double pay?? Vouchers eliminates that cruel liberal punishment for wanting better for our children.
The idea that Christianity is somehow necessary for academic success is asinine.
No one is saying that.? However, if you feed the spirit (something the public school, in theory, cannot do outside empty liberal religions like Kwanzaa), children are more likely to thrive in other areas as well, including academics.
If a child is poor in spirit, it is more likely they will be poor in other areas.
How does a public school feed a child?s spirit without running afoul of the aggressive ?separation of church and state? liberal religion?
Is yoga the answer in public schools?...no wait a minute, that runs afoul of oppressive, anti-religion, establishment folks.
Or are you saying that feeding a child?s spirit is unimportant?
(If so, that?s why people that value this in child raising, want to escape the bankrupt school system in relation to this important child raising issue.)
?
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Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?1123 hrs
In Wis. we have several components to education:? A worthless DPI, Universities that are flush with too many people, K-12 Educrats, Unions, teachers and students.? Who is last in line/
? The only group that places students first is CHOICE.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?1140 hrs
?Feeding the spirit? is empty rhetoric, and all of your statements assume a conclusion. In any case, you have plenty of time for religious instruction n your private life, on weekends, and on Sunday.? The first amendment prohibits religious instruction of any kind. That you don?t understand what religion is is your problem.
No, you can?t opt out, just like you can?t opt out of funding the police because of some personal belief or because you own your own guns. (Double paying there too).
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?1149 hrs
First amendment prohibits religious instruction?? Education wasn?t even part of federal government when the first amendment was written?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?1154 hrs
So? What?s your point? Why did you ask a question and then add an irrelevant sentence followed by an ellipsis?
The answer to your question is ?Yes.?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?1201 hrs
Yes.? To liberals the intent of the Founders is irrelevant.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on?January 23, 2013?at?1255 hrs
Source: http://www.bootsandsabers.com/index.php/weblog/permalink/give_all_students_a_choice
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